Friday 29 December 2017

On the Trail of the Forresters in Cumberland

I haven't forgotten Robert Forrester and his family, despite the infrequent posts on this blog. Far from it. I’ve just spent a month in England, including four days in and around Carlisle, trying to work out whether he originated in Cumberland, an English county on the border with Scotland.

Having eliminated a number of other possible options for his home district in Appendix 1 of my book 'Robert Forrester, First Fleeter', on page 324 I flagged Cumberland as worthy of further investigation. (This book, published early in 2009, is now out of print but has been replaced by 'Sentenced to Debt: Robert Forrester, First Fleeter'.)

Was he, in fact, the Robert Forster who was born at Kingfield, Nicholforest and baptised at Kirkandrews upon Esk on 13 November 1757? (There'll be more on the Forster vs Forrester surname later in this post.) This was a baptism complying exactly with the right range of dates for the First Fleeter's birth, according to his early prison records and his age at death. The Robert born at Kingfield seemed to be the youngest member of a Forster family living at Kingfield at that time, with an older brother named William and another possible brother named John.
Location of Nicholforest, Cumberland, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholforest

I started my research in the Carlisle Archives with the idea of tracing all the men with a name like Robert’s (Forrester/Forester/Forster/Foster) to see which of them might have disappeared out of the district, just as Robert’s partner Isabella Ramsay had disappeared from hers after her trial at nearby Carlisle. But during the 1780s and 1790s a number of Roberts remained in the Kirkandrews and Nicholforest area, marrying, having children and being buried, and there was no way of telling one from the other.

During the three days I spent in the Carlisle Archives I was fortunate to meet Chester Forster, the former Chairman of the Friends of Cumbria Archives and a local expert on the Forrester/Forester/Forster/Foster families of the specific parishes I was researching. I was able to tap into his years of research. He kindly emailed me his parish records of these families. Now that I am back in Melbourne, I need to do much more cross-checking within these parish records, especially the death records.

More importantly, Chester offered to show me round the district on the fourth day, Saturday. My marvellous Yorkshire friends and hosts Sir Stephen & Lady Pamela Brown and myself, in one car, followed Chester and his wife in their car to all the places mentioned in the parish records I’d just spent days poring over. It was invaluable as an experience and I’m very grateful to Chester - and the Browns.
Chester Forster (left) explains local history to Sir Stephen Brown

We started with the church of Saint Andrews beside the river Esk (Kirkandrews upon Esk), today located within Scotland. The church is a surprise package in itself, so Spartan on the outside, yet so Mozartian on the inside.
Kirkandrews upon Esk
Interior of Kirkandrews upon Esk

Further along the valley we crossed the river back into England and moved on to Kingfield. Even Kingfield’s ‘gatehouse’ was impressive.
Kingfield Lodge

Our wonderful guide Chester came from this area so he walked up the driveway to the main house and spoke to the owner, Mr James Thomson-Schwab, who readily gave permission for us to enter and photograph his property. This was despite the presence of the local gentry who happened to be gathered there that day for a ‘shoot’. It was exceedingly obliging of the owner.
Evidence of the Pheasant Shoot

We drove in and I was astonished. Surely Kingfield had not once been Robert’s home? It was far too grand.
Kingfield House

The parish church for the Robert Forrester born here in 1757 was at Kirkandrews, but close to Kingfield was the chapel of ease known as Nicholforest. We stopped at Nicholforest, which was not a separate parish back in 1757, nor was this church building in existence at that time.
Church of St Nicholas, Nicholforest

The road took us onwards past The Nook, where other Forresters had lived.
Signpost for The Nook (Nuik)

Once again, Chester walked down a laneway and once again obtained permission from the owners for me to take photographs.
The Nook Farmhouse

We ended up at Stonegarthside (sometimes written as Stingerside, always pronounced Sting-aside!) which Chester says is generally acknowledged as ‘the ancestral seat of the Forsters and that Forrester is interchangeable, depending upon the hearing of the vicar.’ (This spelling variation is also apparent in the early convict records for Robert Forrester.)

The house looks formidable and well evokes its local history. The district has a long history over many centuries of border clashes, as Scottish reivers (raiders) swept in from the north. Back in the sixteenth century the Forster/Forrester clan chief’s daughter married into the Armstrong clan which Chester described as ‘the most notorious of the Scottish reiving clans’.
Stonegarthside

The extensive farmyard lies between the house and the road, somewhat shielding the main house from view.
Stonegarthside Farmyard

Stonegarthside's bird life was also impressive.
Puffed up like a turkey – local pride at Stonegarthside

As we left the district for a very late lunch at Longtown we passed by Netherstonegarthside or Nether Stonegarthside, half a mile from the main property.
Netherstonegarthside

My first reaction to seeing Kingfield and Stonegarthside was to doubt that ‘our’ Robert was the 1757-born son of Arthur. The Forresters seemed to have been local gentry and the housing seemed far too grand to be the former home of the man we have always pictured as a humble First Fleeter.

However many other clues pointed to this district as Robert’s place of origin. For a start, in his new country Robert took up with Isabella Ramsay almost as soon as they met, although both were married to others. Did their bond form so quickly because they shared the same home district and regional accents, powerful comforts in the alien land of Australia to which they had both been banished?

Second, Robert bestowed upon his sons the given names which were very common in the parish of Kirkandrews upon Esk - Robert (after himself), John, Henry and William. A grandson was named George. These very traditional English names were not common in other potential places of his birth, including Scotland and America, or even among Forrester families living in London, where Robert said in 1783 that he was ‘a stranger’.

Third, when I spent a day driving around the geographically quite large parish of Kirkandrews upon Esk and its ‘offspring’ Nicholforest, I was struck by how similar was the landscape to the Hawkesbury Valley at Windsor. Both areas were once heavily-forested, and the evidence remains. There is a strong emphasis on farming and it seems it was ever thus, with the population of this affluent rural area seemingly as thinly spread as it would have been at the Hawkesbury in Robert’s day.
Rural Scene near Stonegarthside, with river in view

And there was the local parish church Kirkandrews, perched high above the river Esk just like the church of St Matthew overlooking the Hawkesbury River.
Kirkandrews is built on high ground beside the River Esk

As we drove along and I gazed at the landscape, my intuition kicked in – ‘If Robert came from here, no wonder he loved his farm by the Hawkesbury so much and wouldn’t give it up, no matter how many floods he endured. The district reminded him of home.’

There was a major stumbling block however, a giant flaw in the logic of my theory. The Robert Forrester baptised at Kirkandrews upon Esk in 1757 was the son of a man named Arthur, another very English name. Following naming traditions common at that time, any son of the Robert born here in 1757 should have been named Arthur, in honour of his grandfather. But First Fleeter Robert had no son named Arthur. I hung onto one shred of hope – Robert may have rejected long-standing cultural traditions if there was bad blood between him and his father.

And therein lay a possible explanation. As well as the Scottish reiving families, some English families living along the border were reivers too, causing feuds within and between English families. Were father and son on opposite sides of a clan-related feud? Did this explain the First Fleeter’s choice of names for his four sons and the absence of a son named Arthur?

In 1783 Robert was arrested in the company of a Chelsea pensioner, a soldier wounded in the American War of Independence. It’s likely that Robert too went off to this war to fight for the English cause, as many loyal young men of good families did. Chester told me that the local regiment at the time was the 34th Regiment of Foot. But unless the First Fleeter was an officer, or a Chelsea pensioner like his co-accused, there is little chance that his name could be found in army records. I have yet to follow up that avenue of investigation at the State Library of Victoria.

To conclude, my research in Cumberland came to nothing as I still haven’t proved anything about Robert’s origins. He wasn’t literate but I don’t know (yet) whether the Kingfield Forsters were literate either. More research into parish records is needed and is underway.

As for his other qualities and attributes, I do know he was regarded as responsible because he was placed on the night watch in Sydney. He was a good shot with a gun, suggesting military service  ... or much practice at pheasant shooting! He proved himself in Australia as a good farmer, against the odds. He raised his children well, to become upstanding citizens in their own right. He was very independent of government assistance and handouts compared with many other early settlers. It’s possible that these attributes all mean he came from a good family, something never before regarded as a possibility for him.

Having now absorbed the atmosphere pervading the parishes of Kirkandrews upon Esk and Nicholforest, I’m simply left with the gut feeling that somehow this district was Robert's 'place'. A lot more delving and checking will occur before I publish my final conclusions in the Second Edition of this book, to be entitled ‘Sentenced to Debt: Robert Forrester, First Fleeter’.


IMPORTANT UPDATE, December 2018:

My gut feeling was wrong. Possibly Robert came from a place with this kind of geographic  'feel', but it was not this specific place. DNA testing conducted in 2018 and analysed by Stuart Hamilton, another Forrester descendant, has yielded the surprising result that ‘Robert Forrester, First Fleeter’ is most likely the Scottish-born son of an unmarried Forrester woman and a man named John McGaw. Robert adopted his mother's surname and appears (at this stage) to have been unbaptised.

Further details will be published in 'Sentenced to Debt: Robert Forrester, First Fleeter'.

24 comments:

  1. My great grandmother Elizabeth Forster was born at The Nook farm in 1848. She was the eldest of 10 children of her mother(also called Elizabeth) and her father John Forster. The other nine were called John, Arthur, William, Andrew, Maryann, Francis, Agnes, AnnieJane and Isabella. (note: William was shot dead by a poacher in 1891 see "Nicholforest Tragedy" as reported in the newspaper and now reproduced on the web) There is still a John Forster living at Nook farm. The main seat of the Forsters was at Stonegarthside Hall as you say and Robert Forster's gravestone of 1598 shows the Coat of Arms - also on web. I think that by marriage the surname of Broatch became associated with the Hall sometime about late 19th mid 20th Centuries. My mother used to help haymake and take tea and sandwiches to the fields for the harvesters at Stonegarthside. I am married to a Foster although she is from the Northumberland Fosters. I hope the above is of interest. Ian Mitchell.

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    1. Hi everyone,
      I am Carole, and am decendant of the Forsters, whom I have spent years trying to research and traced back as far as Carlile for sure.


      Whilst living just north and then west of Gretna, as a fledging ancestorialist, spent many hours in the Carlisle records office. Sadly, as I had no idea of what I was looking for, came out more confused than I went in and non the wiser. Since then, I have been contacted by my cousin, whom I share a grandmother with who provided me with enough to get me addicted.

      I am from the Hannah Margaret Forster line. Both her father, William David Forster (a military man), who was born in London, and his Father Thomas (Stone Mason), was from Carlisle, but moved for work. have been confirmed. After that, I have spent hours trying to untangle who is who.

      I think that Thomas came over from Hexam afrer marrying Mary Carr, but know little else for sure. Having worked for John Laing, of the New homes devision, I beleive that he moved to London with a team of friends, (including Thomas), in order to take advantage of the mass-expantion of house building on the south bank of the Tames for the 'yuppies of the day' types.

      I also visited a STONEKNOWE VILLA, SCALEBY just outside Brampton, owned by John Forster, who happens to be the step-father of our friend! Life

      If anyone has any information that could help me. I would be indebted forever.

      Carole


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    2. Hi Carole - I hope my blog story, and your request for help, will yield some results for you. It can sometimes take many years to unscramble your lineage. In Australia we've worked since the 1980s trying to find the origins of 'our' Robert Forrester, only to discover through DNA that it's likely it was his mother who was a Forrester/Forster/Foster, and we're still not sure where she originated! It's frustrating!

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    3. The William Forster shot dead in 1891 was my great grandfather and a memorial in the form of a granite obelisk was erected on Stonegarthside Fell.
      Nigel Forster

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    4. The William Forster shot dead was the brother of my great grandmother,Elizabeth Foster of Nook Farm. The monument to William is overgrown by woodland. It is difficult to reach. His spaniel dog was shot. Ian Mitchell

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    5. Belated thanks to Nigel Forster for his William Forster info some months ago and thanks, now, to Ian Mitchell for his updated info on this matter. Happy New Year to everyone.

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  2. Thanks for this interesting addition to my post, Ian. You have a wonderful connection to a fascinating place.

    I'm glad you mentioned the name of the current Forster at The Nook. At one stage I tried unsuccessfully to make contact with him (not knowing his actual name) to see if he'd be willing to do a Y-DNA test (at our expense).

    We're still trying to work out who our First Fleeter's Forrester mother was. Which makes me wonder - have you ever had your family's DNA tested? If so, I'd love to hear from you! Feel free to reply to me via my email address, which is my name louisewilson at tpg.com.au.


    Thanks again for taking the trouble to comment. Every little bit helps in our quests to uncover our respective family histories!

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  3. My ancestors, Francis Forster and Eleanor Hogg, were married in St Nicholas' Church, Nicholforest, in 1765. Eleanor appearers to have died at Stonegarthside in 1802, but was not a resident of the Hall. Perhaps she died at the farm? I have found some significant papers relating to the Forsters of Stonegarthside and believe my ancestor was the son of either John (born 1702) or Thomas (born 1704). To date I have no evidence to verify this supposition.

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    1. It's frustrating, isn't it, trying to track events of 300 years ago. We still haven't found the exact origins of our Robert Forrester. I hope you find the evidence you're seeking for your Francis.

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    2. The text is from one of my entries on the ancestry-platform. My name is Robert Forster, my family were borderers, with much intermarrying with Scottish families.

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    3. Hi Robert - by 'text', I assume you mean my reference to 'The Forresters: A Lowland Clan and its Lands', by Colin D.I.G. Forrester, published by Gronow Press. I've browsed through this book but couldn't find anything relevant to 'my' Robert. However it seems very useful, generally, given all the intermarrying, as you say.

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  4. I have DNA links to the Forsters/Forresterd in Northumberland, all along the borders and in Edinburgh. One of my links is to Stonegarthside. Also of interest I have a Y DNA link to a McGaha. You mention a John McGaw. Wonder if there is a connection there? Has a book been put together on all of this? Thanks so much! Glen Foster.

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    1. Hi Glen - I've recently relocated to Sydney to help my daughter and I apologise for this belated response.

      As far as we can tell, 'our' Robert's Y-DNA forebear was either John McGaw or his male relative. John McGaw is said to have been born in Dunfermline, Scotland in 1725 and died in Abbeville, South Carolina in 1796. Our family also has Y-DNA links to his sons William McGaw, 1750-1836, and John McGaw, 1757-1805. Both sons served in the American War of Independence, on the American side.

      From a confusing account emanating from the McGaws currently living in America, we assume the McGaw family travelled across Scotland through Stirling and across to the Glasgow or Wigtownshire area before crossing the Irish Sea to Northern Ireland and then onwards to America. So the mysterious woman who was Robert's mother could have belonged to a Forrester family located anywhere along this route. Hope that helps.

      I'd love to know more about your McGaha link.
      Regards, Louise Wilson

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  5. Hi Louise - I just got back from Scotland and Northern England in mid-July. I spent some time on the borders and went by Stonegarthside and took a few pictures. I love the place and the view from there is amazing. It was strange how I felt at home along the borders.. My Forsters/Fosters went to Northern Ireland in the 1600s (Antrim and Fermanagh) and then to Lancaster County, PA and Virginia/North Carolina. I have found that the McGaha's may have followed the same path. I am Y DNA linked to a McGaha and share a paternal ancestor 5-600 years ago, around 1400/1500 AD. Do you know if your families Y-DNA links are J-M172? BTW I am also linked through Ancestry.com to at least a dozen Wilsons.

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    1. Mr Anonymous, are you Glen in disguise? I'm glad your trip was so meaningful. Yes, Stonegarthside is an amazing place - very atmospheric. I loved it too. Unfortunately, our Forrester/McGaw Y-DNA links (within the y haplogroup R-M269) don't match your McGaha line, so I guess you have proved that 'our' Robert Forrester did not originate in the Nicholforest area of the Scottish borders. I am a Wilson by a former marriage so we won't connect there either. If you are ever interested in 'our' Forrester story, you will find it in 'Sentenced to Debt: Robert Forrester, First Fleeter', with full details of this book and my other books on my website https://www.louisewilson.com.au. Best of luck with your ongoing research and family history travels.

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  6. This is Glen Foster again. Not sure why I ended up ad ‘anonymous’ above. I will be reading the book as I am an avid Foster/Forster/Forrester researcher. It is my hope to spend two or three weeks in Edinburgh next summer and from there explore some of Scotland and continue searching along the border.

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  7. Hi Mr Anonymous Glen. I've just grappled with the same issue as you - took me ages learning how to avoid being 'anonymous' on my own site. I'm pleased you plan to read 'Sentenced to Debt'. And here's another title for you as a dedicated Forrester researcher - if you haven't already read it. 'The Forresters: A Lowland Clan and its Lands', by Colin D.I.G. Forrester, published by Gronow Press. Enjoy your planned trip next summer - hope you stumble across the key to unlocking your family history mystery.

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    1. This is 'anonymous' Glen again :) Hope this finds you well. I will check out the book you mentioned above by Colin Forrester. Thanks! I am convinced my Forsters/Foster are the lowland border clan as many of my ancestral names are other lowland border names. I will be going back to the borders this summer for sure, is there anything you would like me to check out for you, or any place you would recommend seeing that is associated with the Forsters? Thanks Glen

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    2. Gran duty in Sydney to four teenagers has distracted me once again and I'm late with my response to your message. It was so kind of you to offer to help. As DNA now suggests that my Forresters seem to have originated around Kippen, in Stirlingshire, I won't burden you with my research tasks. However, for your own research, I suggest you spend some time at Carlisle - at the very good Archives Centre which holds a lot of Forrester/Forster/Foster material - and also at the Castle or Citadel where many young men from the district served with the local Regiment of Foot. When in Carlisle I ran out of time to visit the Castle, where 'my' Robert Forrester's partner Isabella Ramsay was incarcerated for some months in August 1790 before being shipped to Australia. I wonder if the holding cells are still there! Enjoy your time in the border area this summer - hope it's fruitful for your family research. Louise.

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  8. It's interesting what happens when you google something! I was re-reading a genealogical document that was written in 1843 called 'Rutledge-Dodgson Manuscript', reading about a 'William Elliot' born in the Parish of Castleton Scotland in or about 1726 and Died at Nether Stonegarthside as by Tombstone in Ettleton Churchyard December 6th 1782 aged 56 years. I got curious about the 'Nether Stonegarthside' and voila, I ended up here, reading your wonderful blog! Someone had directed me this manuscript a few years ago, suggesting that I might find something in it about MY Eleonor Forrester, born in Nook, Nichol Forest in 1801, wife of William Little from Roxboroughshire. I was stunned to read what had been a family story passed down from generation to generation...in a manuscript written in 1843! Eleonor Forrester is recorded on a family tombstone at the church in Stapleton. She died during the voyage to Canada, giving birth, and leaving her husband, William Little and 3 other children.
    I am curious about the above mentioned Forrester book and will look into buying it. For anyone interested, here is a link to the manuscript that I have mentioned. https://sites.rootsweb.com/~rutledge/DodgsonManuscript.htm

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  9. Interesting how I ended up reading your blog. I was re-reading an online document called 'Rutledge-Dodgson Manuscript' written by Robert Dodgson in 1843 and googled something that I was curious about in the manuscript that led me to your blog! In section 'U' of the manuscript he mentions John Forrester/Forster married to Elizabeth Graham and their descendents. Would any of these people be the same Forresters that you are researching? Here is the link to the Manuscript: https://sites.rootsweb.com/~rutledge/DodgsonManuscript.htm
    "Elizabeth or Betty Daughter of William Graham and Elizabeth or Betty Scott his wife Born at Nook Nicholforest in or about 1766 Died (as by Family Tombstone at Stapleton) March 24th 1840 aged 74 years. She married in or about 1784 John Forster or Forrester (owner of an Estate at Nook Nicholforest) Born supposed at Blackdubs otherwise Shieldhill in Bewcastle in or about 1764 Died at Brownknowe ( part of Nook Estate) as by Tombstone at Stapleton June 25th 1832 Aged 68 years. John Forrester and Elizabeth or Betty Graham his wife had several children – Namely – Margaret Born at Nook in or about 1784. Married in or about 1835 Robert Graham a Land Surveyor Nephew to the late Robert Graham who was Steward many years to Sir James Graham Baronet of Netherby. She is owner of a Field at Nook called Nook Browfield left by the will of her late Father John Forrester. She has no issue. She and Husband in 1843 reside at or near Harlaw Miln Scotland. Elizabeth or Betty Born at Nook in or about 1787. Married in or about March 2nd 1813 John Cowen who went to Ceeders Lower Canada North America in 1816. They had a large Family of Sons and Daughters viz William Born in 1813 Dead. John born in 1815 at Knowhead. Mary Born at Mt Real – Francis William and Agness. The above named John Cowen Died in or about June 1832 at Ceeders in America and Elizabeth his widow and family are living in 1843 at Ceeders above named in America. William Son of John Forrester and Elizabeth Graham his wife – Born at Nook – in or about 1789 Died young John Son (and heir) of John Forrester and Elizabeth Graham his wife born at Nook in or about 1791. Married in or about 1820. Elizabeth or Betty Forster of Catlowdy Nicholforest Born in or about June 1799 ( She was Daughter of William Forster who Died at Catlowdy in or about 1809 aged 53 and Mary Portus (living in 1843)his wife Born in 1758) They had issue by the Marriage one son Born in or about October 27th 1820. Died August 12th 1822 and One Daughter named Elizabeth or Betsy (living in 1843) Born at Nook in or about 1824 who will heir the Paternal Estate of the Forresters of Nook. The above named John Forrester (the father of Elizabeth or Betsy) heired the Nook and Knowehead Estates at his Fathers Death in 1832 And Also afterwards Purchased Brownknowe Estate being the Right of Common for the Ancient Estate of Nook from his Sister Elizabeth and Family in America who got the Estate of Brownknowe in consequence (as will be hereafter mentioned) of Elizabeths Brother William dying without issue. .....part 1

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  10. Here is the rest of the Forresters mentioned in the Rutledge-Dodgson Manuscript. ~
    William son of John Forrester and Elizabeth or Betty Graham his wife Born at Nook in or about 1794 Died at Houghton Parish of Stanwix Cumberland (as by Tombstone at Stapleton) November 27th 1836 aged 42 years. He married in or about 1827 or 8 Elizabeth Graham Eldest daughter of the Reverend John Graham Rector of Bewcastle (by his second wife) who was Born at Bewcastle Glebe House. She married a second husband Mr McAdam a Surgeon from Longtown Cumberland, Son of Mr McAdam a noted surgeon there. The before named William Forrester Died without issue and the Estate of Brownknowe which was left him by his late Father went according to the Will to his Sister Betty and Family in America who sold it as before stated to John Forrester the present owner. The above named William Forrester who died at Houghton followed the Profession of a Surgeon. Mary Daughter of John Forrester and Elizabeth or Betty Graham his wife Born in or about 1798 at Nook Died at Brownknowe (as by Family Tombstone) January the 8th 1826 aged 28 years unmarried. Eleanor Daughter of the above named John Forrester and Elizabeth or Betty Graham his wife Born at Nook in or about 1801. Married William Little a Native of Canobie Scotland in or about September 1820. He with Eleanor Forster his wife and family went to America and soon after their arrival his above named wife Eleanor Forrester Died in Childbed at or near Mount Real in North America (as by Tombstone at Stapleton) June 13th 1833 aged 32 years. William Little her husband afterwards married a second wife and he and second wife and first and second wifes children are living in 1843 near Toronto (or Little York) Upper Canada. Joseph son of John Forrester and Elizabeth or Betty Graham his wife Born at Nook in or about 1804 Died at Ceeders Lower Canada North America (as by Family Tombstone at Stapleton) in February 1834 aged 30 years – He followed the Profession of a Surgeon and was many years in Canada. was unmarried. Agness the Youngest child of John Forrester and Elizabeth or Betty Graham his wife born at Nook in or about 1811. Married at St Marys Church Carlisle on or about December the 31st 1835 Joseph Wilson a Merchants Clerk from Carlisle who was born at Ainstable Parish of Ainstable County of Cumberland. Agness holds by the Will of her late Father John Forrester the small Estate (part of the Brownknowe Estate) called Cornerhouse which is also an Inn. Joseph Wilson and Agness Forrester his wife in 1843 resides and keeps a Mercers shop at Newcastle on Tyne and have a family of Four Children – Namely – Mary Eleanor – Joseph – Hannah Elizabeth – and John Forrester –

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  11. Hi again, what I had googled was 'Netherstonegarthside' which is where a William Elliot had lived and died at in 1782 and is buried at the church in Stapleton. "William Elliot before named the Grandfather of William Elliott the Husband of Mary Dodgson was said to be a very tall and stout made man. Uncertain where born supposed somewhere in the Parish of Castleton Scotland in or about 1726 and died at Nether Stonegarthside as by Tombstone in Ettleton Churchyard December 6th 1782 aged 56 years." He is linked to Elizabeth Graham, mother of my Eleonor Forrester from Nook.

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  12. Hi Bonnie - So sorry for belated response to your four posts, which I'm sure will prove very valuable as reading material for the Forresters of the Nicholforest area. I'm pretty sure that the John Forrester/Elizabeth Graham connection you mention is a different family to mine. Using DNA we think we have traced our First Fleeter's family, via his mother Elizabeth Forrester born 1730, to his grandparents Robert Forrester and Margaret Graham, of Kippen, Stirlingshire. The proof has come using the Y-DNA link to his paternal McGaw family, who migrated to America prior to the War of Independence. It sounds as if you've made progress with your own research, and I thank you for offering help to me as well. Best regards, Louise

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